Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Built Different Podcast. I'm Eric Tillman, the CEO of Tillman Builders and your host. our mission in business and the goal for this podcast is to change the construction industry standard, what it means to be a contractor. tonight's episode is all about basically college versus trades, right?

So, I think it's kind of a hot topic nowadays, especially with AI and And things like that coming out. But I kind of want to get more into like the f from a young man's perspective. that's really the we've been in business since 1982, but since probably 2020, we really shifted our focus to I don't know, I don't want to say focus on, but certainly pay attention to mental health. mental health for young men. and giving them, providing them with a path forward.

I do not have a college degree. and when I was a kid, it was, you know, hey, where are you going to college? And it felt like kind of if you weren't going to college, it was a failure. that's how it felt. I think most people my age probably felt sort of the same way.

I did attend Coodstown for two years. They politely asked me to leave. and so I did after two years. But but there is a there's a crisis that many young men are facing nowadays, feeling lost, anxious, depressed, loneliness, lack of direction, endless scrolling, gaming, digital stimulation, fewer opportunities to feel genuinely useful. many young men have never been asked to carry much responsibility.

So You know, this is women have their own things that they're facing at the moment in the past and who knows what the future holds. But you know, our industry is it's a masculine industry. there are there are more men than women, period. and so you know, we just we we really lean into you know what these young guys need, you know, what's important to them, what are they missing in their life? and what kind of what kind of messages do they want to hear and do they need to hear?

Right. And so anyhow, So today we're gonna be kind of leaning into that, right? College versus trades. Like, is it better for a young man to attend college? In many cases, yes, definitely.

Right? We need doctors, lawyers, things like that. Now with AI, the conversation's a bit different. We're not gonna really get into that today. I'm it's not it's above my pay grade.

I don't know where AI is going, but I do know, having a sense of purpose, having a sense of meaning as a young man or as any man, we all need a clear purpose and one that we really that really moves us, drives us, that we feel called or compelled to do. that's probably one of one of the things in my life that I'm most grateful for. I love my job. I love my life and the purpose that I have. I enjoy that.

Doesn't mean my life is easy. but I get up every day and I like I like my life. I like what I have to do, I like my responsibilities. When I was a young man, I certainly didn't. I was awful at paying bills and whatever.

setting doctor's appointments, you name it. Certainly calling back clients and things like that. That just came with time. But but for so long I did not have a direction. And so I think that's a big reason why I decided to really center the company on that, right?

Like I wanted so badly to just I wanted to provide a place for young men to join a team, a team that loved them, to work and grow and reach their potential. That is the goal here. and you know, we also I don't know, we just we talk about things in our company that you wouldn't expect. You know, we've talked about alcohol dependency. We've talked about depression.

We've talked about marriage, fatherhood, you name it. you know, morning routines, journaling, meditating, prayer, faith. so all these things are important. And I can't leave out physical fitness. but you never know what's gonna hit for somebody, you know, for you know, for some people, I've I've just seen it like they'll hear the right thing at the right time and it's just it's game over for them.

From that point forward, they're just a totally different person and they have this new drive or this new purpose or whatever. And so we try to you know, talk about stuff like that a lot and we share inspirational videos and things like that just in the hopes that somebody hears the right thing at the right time. and then a changes it changes the trajectory of their life. that exact thing happened for me. I heard one line and it changed everything for me.

I heard it at the right time. If I had heard it a year before it wouldn't have had that effect or maybe if I heard it a year later, it wouldn't have had that effect. So so anyway, that's just kind of a little inside of the way that we talk with our team and the type of message we really want them to grasp. You know, so the trades, the trades give you purpose. people count on you, your team needs you, clients need you, the work matters.

and if you don't show up, the project suffers, the team notices. So that's the great thing about having a big team. At this point, we have a we have a sizable team, about 40 team members. They all love their job, they don't want it to get messed up or tarnished or toxic in any way. and so, you know, once we establish a company culture that is strong and deeply rooted in core values, from there, I don't like this phrase, but it's I don't know how else to say it.

The culture polices itself. So if we hire somebody and they're not doing, they're not behaving in a congruent way to our culture, then the It's not doesn't take very long for them to leave the company. So so anyway, the team notices. That's just a big point to make. when a young man realizes people are depending on him, something changes.

Whew, that's totally true. And the best example of that is fatherhood. you know, again, all the moms out there love you guys. You guys are great. We need you.

That's a podcast probably with somebody else for a different day. but for me, I know most about how I felt and with fatherhood. and it changed my life, you know. I had my family depending on me. And so I think that's a common story for most men.

confidence comes from competence. so many young men are struggling right now with confidence. That's a That's a guarantee, probably more so now than ever in history. I would think. the solution is not motivational speeches.

the solution is becoming capable. So the trade forces you to learn skills, solve problems, figure things out, and improve every day. I do, I do love that line, improve every day, because you know, I often look at like I like I have some habits that are. bad and I have others that are good. one of my better habits is working out every day.

I like to weight train. I've been doing it for well 20 years now. and it's just this, it's so it's so similar to growing a business. It's so similar to growing your skill set in a trade. It's just this slow chipping away.

It's it's you know trying something for three weeks and then You get hurt and then you're like, darn, I okay, I have to do it this way now. And you say you change your approach, but it requires patience. It requires this I don't know, this vision in your mind of a of a of you know, of a future version and then a slow chipping away. And you do not get results after one day of going to the gym. And so I don't know, I just I love weight training and running because it does it requires a lot of hard work.

There's pain involved and you have to shift, you have to try new things, you have to adapt. so I don't know. I like growing a business and I also like growing in my physical fitness. and so anyway, improve every day. confidence isn't something you think your way into, it's something you earn.

Yeah, that's that's true. the trades teach accountability. One of the greatest gifts a young man can receive is accountability. I agree with that. the job site doesn't care about excuses.

So either the wall is straight or it isn't. All right. Either the cabinet is installed properly or it isn't. you showed up for work or you didn't. it's reality, right?

So it doesn't lie. the trades, let's see, brotherhood. Okay. I love this one. And this is this is this is the meat of the conversation here.

so A lot of guys nowadays, I'll just say young men. I don't know. I probably sixteen through who knows, twenty-five, thirty, you know. I'm in a men's group right now and you know, they're it's all different ages in there, you know, and still, you know, anyway, men are men today are feeling isolated. And I think it's a lot of it is comes from just the way that the world is now with online interactions and things like that.

It's there's a whole lot to it. I'm not an expert, but I have heard a lot about that topic. and you know, they're they're dating less. There's all sorts of layers to it again. But in a healthy trade environment, you work side by side with your brothers.

You know, that's what I that's what I call them out there. I say, you know, you gotta look after your brother to the right of you and to the left of you. You solve you solve problems together, you joke together, you struggle together. That's a big one too, right? And if you have a strong culture in those difficult times where there's a bit of a struggle, maybe it's super hot, maybe it's freezing cold.

or maybe the task is so repetitive and difficult, like maybe it's jackhammering a slab, or maybe it's digging, you know, 15 footings for a deck or something like that. Like It it gets very hard at times. And so a good culture keeps you together. A good culture keeps people from not I don't know, freaking out on each other. but it's it's during those times of struggle that relationships build.

and not online relationships. These are in person, real ones. So there's something there's there's something powerful about sweating beside another man while working towards a common goal. Hundred percent, you know, and we just we just don't get the opportunity to do that much in today's age. So where I think where we where we kind of f feel this the most is like on a team, sports team, right?

My son plays baseball, he and my other son plays soccer. They they're kind of scratching that itch, right? That that primal itch to be part of a tribe. To be working towards something together. it's hard, it's challenging, the future is uncertain.

and you know, and then at some point, you'll and for many of us, often it's after we graduate college, we stop playing sports, we stop having that camaraderie. And that camaraderie is powerful for a young man. and you know, it takes the attention off of you when you're part of a team. A team like ours, and there's many others like it. but when you're part of a team that actually You're not number one.

The team is number one, right? Like you do, you make, you'll make better decisions because of the team, because of your brothers out there. and when you're part of a team like that, it takes self-centeredness out of the equation. No longer is it about me. Now it's about the team.

And I think that's really important for all young men is to be to not be self-centered, you know, to live for a bigger purpose, a higher calling. many of us find that through faith in God, Jesus Christ. but taking the attention off of ourselves is very important. I think I th I want to say specifically for men because men can be so destructive in their behavior. so you know Again, I keep feeling the need to give my flowers to all the ladies out there.

but I'm I'm I just know what it feels like to be a guy. So learning from older men, this is huge too. So this is becoming increasingly more rare. historically young men learned from older men. it's just how it was.

We lived in tight communities, we learned things you know. Not just with our hands, but you know, we learned about finances and whatever from older men. and nowadays we just really don't have that. you can find it. I certainly found it on YouTube.

That's maybe that's why I'm doing a podcast here. I'm I'm not sure, but you know, there's plenty of guys that I don't know. They don't know me, but when I watch their content, I'm learning from them. And in many cases they are older. So The trades naturally create mentorship.

We live on these, by the way. These spin drift seltzer waters. They're so good. Especially when they're freezing cold. A young apprentice can learn from lead carpenters, foremen, project managers, business owners, but not just construction.

Okay. Back a back to what I was saying earlier. We talk a lot about life, marriage, fatherhood, responsibility, character. it's it's this is not, this is not. Just construction, not this company.

No way. I would not feel fulfilled if it was. We literally want to change the lives of everybody that works in our company. I promise you, that is a massive motivator for me. and it is for some of the other lead leaders in the company.

you know, again, a company is a reflection of the leader or the leaders. And so, Anyway, I'm yeah, I'm I don't know why I well I do know why. but the company is structured in such a way like when a new person comes and joins the company, they quickly realize, wow, this is different. This is different than what I've seen in the past. because we do talk about more sensitive subjects, you know, like depression, anxiety, you know.

all these things that men don't typically want to talk about. and the reason I do that is because again, I was just I was lost for so much of my childhood. You know, it wasn't until I really had my first child that I and I was like probably twenty nine years old that I applied myself for the first time. And it just felt like I don't know. I just It was so weird that I didn't know if you applied yourself that you could get good at something until such a late age.

And so now that I have so many young guys in their early twenties I like just wanna spread the word, you know? And not everybody gets it. Not everybody hears it. not everybody probably understands why I say it, but if I can if you know, if I can change the lives of, I don't know, four guys, you know, and we've we've changed the lives of more than that. But it's not just me and it's not just this stuff I'm talking about.

It's a it's layers, it's you know, this has to be a secure place to work, it has to have structure, it has to have future opportunity. It has to be all laid out. There there's many levels to it. but this is also part of it, right? This is also this is the part where it's I know that you're a human and I know that you have feelings and I know that you're not you don't have it all figured out, you know, just like I don't.

I still don't have it figured out. I never will. None of us do. But it gives me an opportunity to show them that I still struggle with certain aspects of my life, mainly in my own mind, right? Like that's where most of our problems lie.

So physical work. This is this is like, I guess this is a big part of the conversation here too, because the topic really is college versus trades. I'm obviously gonna pump up the trades here. it's who I am, it's what I know. but physical work is good for the mind, period.

So now I work in an office. I have been working in an office since 2020, and it is a major shift. So when we hire, when we promote from within. And we bring somebody, the most recent one was Khalif. He is an estimator for us now, but he was a carpenter.

And before that, it was maybe Garrett, who is also an estimator. Jay, senior estimator, he came from the field. JP came from the field. Guess that's I guess that's it. But anytime somebody comes from the field, we give them a firm warning, this is gonna be a major shift.

Please watch your mental wellness. You know, you go from being out in the sun all day, getting vitamin D, doing something productive, you turn around at the end of the day, you get to look at what you built. that that keeps stress away, period. It totally does. and I know it's true.

because now that I'm in the office, and have been for some time, it I don't get that. I don't I don't get that. Like you're staring at screens, you have you know, whatever you call it, fake lighting, unnatural lighting. and the work is just different, you know. And so anyway, physical work is good for the mind.

The reason I know that is because on the weekends I do all these things to help with stress levels and I'm pretty good at managing my stress, but I can feel it, you know, it goes in waves and some days are worse than others. But but if I have a project at my house where I'm working with my hands for the whole Saturday or something, my stress it goes away immediately. Immediately my stress goes away. And so I just I we all miss that. We all miss being out in the field and that aspect of it.

so working with your hands, being outside, moving your body, creating tangible results. Like I said, you kind of turn around and you framed the whole addition and it's like it wasn't there in the morning. many people spend all day in their heads. Yep. trades.

bring you back into reality. so anyway, another thing it teaches you delayed gratification. So young men need hard things. I'm big on that. And the trades they teach starting at the bottom, learn, be patient, earn trust, earn responsibility.

it does not happen overnight. Like it I feel like you can learn other things much faster. And so it really is like a slow build. Recently we talked about, you know, Joe and there's Dave Jaspin and many others who learned very quickly, but the norm is not that. The norm is it's like it's like kind of like you feel like you're not growing at all.

You grow little, you grow a little, and two years in, like once you underst it's like it clicks. And like once I've seen it a million times, you'll spend two years to get to a certain point, and then once it clicks. The next two years, you're not doubling your skills, you're 10xing your skills. It's this little click, this little shift that happens. and so if you can make it to that point, which again requires patience, well, that's your ticket, right?

That's the price of admission. I wanna say, you know, God needs to test to see if you're ready, right? and doesn't make you ready until you are ready. but I think that's the price of admission, the patience. because it does not happen overnight.

Trades don't hand you confidence. They give you opportunities to earn it. it's great. It's great. But really anything that happens overnight is not good.

You know, I mean, you gotta work for the things that we break our back for feel better in the end than anything that was given to us. And so I don't know. I just think that the trades are a good way to access that. What I've seen in this company.

So I mean, we just had these guys on. Joe, Sean, and Mike. Joe, one year into construction, becomes a lead car lead carpenter. it gave it gave him a place to direct his ambition. So if you remember Joe, he's a very ambitious guy.

but again, an ambitious guy without purpose is a dangerous guy. You know, that's when that's when a lot of young men will start drinking too much or they, you know, I don't know, they start dating around, I'll say, or they'll just become destructive and like, I don't know, stay up till one o'clock and be late for work. Like If you don't care, then who cares? You know, and so anyway, it sounds bad that a man without purpose is can be very destructive, but it's just true. It's it's totally true.

Sean, he came in struggling, accountability was difficult, nearly lost his opportunity, he chose growth instead, and now he's thriving. Mike Monzo, he we just had him on. he's a different person than when he arrived. he's purpose driven. He's a culture carrier, you know?

So and these are just three guys. I mean, the company's full of them. our guys are incredible. I'm really impressed by especially the young guys in our company. they are not how I was when I was young.

But I've watched construction change people's lives, not because of the paycheck, but because they became different men. That's the goal. That's transformational leadership. That's what that is. and that is my leadership style in this company.

That is that is the that is the leadership style of the company, transformational leadership. it is long-term thinking. It is not in the short term, and we talk oftentimes in long timelines, you know? it's we make good decisions now for what is coming later. Or what's probably more true is we make hard decisions now.

Like we make the right and harder choice now. For long-term gain, right? When we're dealing with clients, if there's a difficult situation, maybe it's a warranty item that's, I don't know, outside of the warranty. We honor that. We honor that because the relationship is more important than the warranty claim, you know.

So anyway, all ties into culture. the responsibility of employers. So the trades do not change lives, but leaders do. if owners can create toxic environment Well, I'm sorry, if owners create toxic environments, constant yelling, no mentorship and no vision, they completely waste the opportunity. So that's the point of this podcast.

If you are a business owner out there and you got young guys or really anybody, right? it's just so important that we create these good environments, not a soft environment, a good environment, one that is real. You know, look, it fun is fun, but winning is more fun than fun is fun, right? So I want everybody to love their job. I want them to have a lot of fun, but we have to we have to work hard.

Like if I just came to the office and hung out, drank coffee and talked to these guys all day long, and I got home, my wife said, How was your day? It was awful. It was awful. I didn't do anything. You know, we we We want to produce, you know, young men and men in general want to have a purpose and we want to provide and we want to produce.

We want to work hard, you know? We do. and a lot of young men just don't know that. They don't know that they don't know how it feels, you know. I'll try to draw a similarity here.

I hear a lot, I'm not a runner. Okay, well, I wasn't a runner either until I felt the mental benefits from running. and then quickly I became a runner. But up until that time, I said all I said, I wasn't I'm not a runner, you know? I'm a lifter, I'm not a runner.

So, you know, I think sometimes we have to just you know, we have to kind of taste the fruit, right? I mean we have to get some results and then From there, now that's where the transformation comes in. That's when we literally see boys turn into men. Right. Is when they once they they taste that responsibility, that brotherhood, that camaraderie and the purpose and the produ productivity, that's that's when they catch the bug.

And that's the hope. And then that they never they never look back. So the goal here is not to build better carpenters. The goal is to build better people.

That is the goal for sure. I believe young men need challenge, they need responsibility, they need purpose, they need people who believe in them and hold them accountable. Believe in them and hold them accountable. Really important. the trades can provide all of those things, not because swinging a hammer is magical, but because becoming capable changes how a man sees himself.

And when a man becomes capable, confident, accountable, and purpose driven, everything in life gets better. recently I heard a phrase, when a man is thriving, everyone around him is thriving. it hits so many parts of our soul and our and our mind and it's just become a real passion of mine. You know, I got all these young guys and I just want to I just want to see them, you know, I'll never know if I if I made a major impact. some have told me that, but there are many that you don't know.

Just like any other interaction, you know, say you go get a sandwich at Wawa and you know, the woman who makes your sandwich, you look her in the eyes and you say thank you very much. And you and you just kind of hold the eye contact for a second and really say, Thank you. Very much. I love interactions like that because in my mind, I think that I change that person's life, even if it's just the littlest bit. And so here we are, we got these guys with us 40 hours out of the week.

I can say whatever I want. So let me say something really good, you know, let me say something that's impactful. Let me, you know, let me ask them about their family and really listen and really care about what they say. I don't know. It's just it's a gift.

I am so happy that I have this gift to be able to, you know, impact these guys in a positive way. And I'm not saying I always do, but that's the part of my job I probably enjoy the most. so anyway, I think that's it for today, guys. if it if I had to vote, it is tough. It is tough.

I'm you know, I'm raising my children and I have my oldest is nine and recently he didn't do his schoolwork. and it's tough. For for me, I don't I don't particularly love the whole college idea. I think it's important for certain professions. But I think so many people go to college, they get this you know, degree in something that they will never use.

They come out, they're in debt and Now they're playing catch up. Plus, you got the housing market and who's got twenty percent to put down. That's a whole nother thing. But like, I don't know. I just think that for many people, they work through high school and stuff and they think that it's a failure if they don't go to college.

And I just don't think that's true. And and it pushes people into a college degree where they're not meant for college. I was never supposed to go to college. My personality, I didn't I did not I'm I'm not meant for that and neither are probably well over half of the population. and so anyway, I just I'm not sure who I'm reaching here.

If I'm reaching business owners to do a better job and take more ownership of the time and attention that they have with their young employees, their men, their male employees specifically. Or if or if this podcast is aimed at a parent who's maybe going through this, you know, what do we do? my son didn't do his homework recently. And you know, I told him, I said, Hey man, it's really important that you do your homework. School's really important, which it is.

but at some point, I don't know if I would want them to go to college. We'll have to figure out what they want to do for their career. So, so anyway, it's a it's a loaded topic. it's an important one. It is the future of our of our country.

It's the future of our youth. and it is it is the future of masculinity in America. It just is, you know. And even though we're we're not a very large company, I do view it that way. And I enjoy resting my head on the pillow at the end of the day, knowing that I really do care and I really did try and I continue to try.

For a greater good, a greater purpose, one that is not myself. and that's why I never quit. So, anyway, as always, guys, thank you for staying tuned. stay positive, be nice, and step out of your comfort zone. Bye.